Taking Charge: Becoming the CEO of Your Life and Career

Liz Ryan [00:00:00]:

You are the CEO of your life and career. We talk about financial models. People have said for years, your house, if you have a house or a condo, that's your biggest asset. No. Your career to run dwarfs your house for most folks. Right? So how you run that and the degree to which you actively run it is everything.

Joanna Ehresman [00:00:33]:

Hi there. Thanks for joining us. I'm Joanna Ehresman. And I'm Leah Alter. And this is WomenShare, a celebration of women in financial services. Today, we wanna say a special thank you to our presenting sponsor, Axtella, the home for financial professionals who believe that people make the biggest difference.

Leah Alter [00:00:51]:

If you're looking for a network of firms that elevates every experience for their professionals and their clients, check out Axtella today at go.axtella.com/womenshare. That's go.axtella.com/womenshare. And today, we are so excited. We are joined by Liz Ryan, CEO and founder of Human Workplace, the world's most widely read career and HR authority. Liz is a former Fortune five hundred, human resources executive and the leader of a 3,000,000 member, 3,000,000 member human workplace movement to reinvent work for people. When she's not leading the charge on on change on how we navigate the corporate HR world, she is an operatic soprano that is amazing. And she and her husband are parents to five children and reside in the New York area. I have been following Liz work for a long time on LinkedIn and always found her content to be so thought provoking, and not what you would expect from the typical HR executive, and we just love that here on the show.

Leah Alter [00:02:10]:

So we are so excited to have you, Liz. Welcome to WomenShare.

Liz Ryan [00:02:14]:

Well, thank you so much for having me.

Joanna Ehresman [00:02:16]:

We we've we're talking a little bit before we got started recording here. I mean, Leah and I are kind of buzzing with excitement because there's so much that, we want to get into, and we we just love how you're helping many peep so many people with your work. And wanna understand a little bit more about how you developed these frame shifting HR leadership and communication practices. Were they a byproduct of what you had seen in the corporate world? Like, how did this come to be?

Liz Ryan [00:02:42]:

Well, I think that, you know, I went to school at a high school, I went to conservatory to sing. And, and I had to have a job just to pay my little day to day expenses, and I was a I was a waitress. That was a word back back then. And, and I immediately noticed this is okay. It's a good job. I can I can make pretty good money? But the way that it's set up, the way that at least that job and and the other kind of entry level, super entry level or survival type jobs I saw were set up was not good. It wasn't healthy. You know? It was Mhmm.

Liz Ryan [00:03:14]:

It wasn't based on making it a good experience for the people working there. Right? Right. I wouldn't get a conversation. And, and then when when I left school, I, learned that opera is not like a thing where you fill out a w two and you go to a job. You know?

Joanna Ehresman [00:03:32]:

It's not a nine to five.

Liz Ryan [00:03:34]:

It's not a nine to five, and I I still do now, but but I've it's always been freelance, of course. And so I had to get a job, and so I got an office job and the same thing.

Leah Alter [00:03:45]:

It

Liz Ryan [00:03:45]:

was actually Payne Webber. That was my first office job. Payne Webber down in the basement of Wall Street. I was 19. And I said, you've got to be kidding me. As a matter of fact, one of the very first things that happened and I can say that because Paine Webber is not really a thing anymore. Right? They've been all subsumed a hundred times since then. Right.

Liz Ryan [00:04:04]:

One of the very first things that happened at that job was that, I had one friend. There was one person who would talk to me. This is after maybe three months in the job, very, very entry level clerical job. And, I'm in the ladies' room. She comes in, half in tears. I said, what happened? She said, well, you know, I got married a couple weeks ago. Evidently, it was in the paper, not the New York Times, which at the time reserved marriage announcements wedding announcements for the, you know, the 1%. But somewhere else, it was there was no Internet, so it was somewhere in the paper.

Liz Ryan [00:04:36]:

And personnel, the old name for HR, saw this notice and changed my name in these records at here at PaineWebber. And I saw it on my pay stub today, and I went in there and said, I actually did not change my name when I got married. And they said, no. Yes. You did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Ryan [00:04:57]:

Oh my god. Totally. I don't know. I was like, oh, you're a senator. What? That's outrageous. They will not listen. They they at that point in history, they said, you're you're supposed to take your husband's name, and that's it. And she just she just there was no recourse.

Liz Ryan [00:05:17]:

That wasn't a thing. I don't know what you would do today if that happened, but I think people would be a little more alarmed. And I said, well, something is off here. Not just here, but here, the big here.

Leah Alter [00:05:30]:

Yeah.

Liz Ryan [00:05:30]:

And, and, you know, I I left shortly afterwards. I got called on the carpet by a VP for a really stupid I made a tiny, completely intuitive process improvement, and and I got called in some this we're a highly regulated industry. I said, no. No. You cannot tell me the SEC is watching. If we copy on one side of the paper or both of them, that I've I don't believe that's true. But I just said that I got cast in the national touring company of Cats, which was obviously completely made up just to get out of there, and I did. And that's when I went to Chicago, Waitress again.

Liz Ryan [00:06:08]:

But I said, wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Because I didn't realize how much how how conventional and unexceptional and unremarked the dysfunction really is. It just happened to be financial services, but nobody else thought it was a big deal at all. They changed your name. What you would expect.

Liz Ryan [00:06:25]:

You got married. Yeah. Except I didn't change my name. Here's my driver's license. Right. That's a big deal. You have a different name at work. How dare you, though? How dare you? Right.

Liz Ryan [00:06:35]:

We just dare. We just dare audacity. We just dare. So so so this was in me. And then when I when I became an HR person against my will, about five years later, I said, well, now at least I have a chance to make this place functional and cool and human and warm and fun and fizzy and all this kind of stuff. And then as time went on, I said, but yeah. But what about every place? So I started writing and speaking about that and doing courses and that kind of thing to sort of say there is a way there's another way. We've all taken in a lot of really toxic brainwashing.

Liz Ryan [00:07:08]:

And to the extent that we can get rid of that, we can be healthier and happier and more productive and more successful ourselves and then help other people. And, ultimately, if if we if we have the cloud and the influence, help organizations and industries do the same thing just as YouTube are doing. Love that.

Joanna Ehresman [00:07:26]:

Well and what is it about the profile of that role where you first had the HR position and you could implement those changes? What was it about that company you think that made them open to that sort of thing?

Liz Ryan [00:07:39]:

That's a that's a great question. When I went to Chicago, the Paine Webber experience was kinda, like, left a sour taste in my mouth. Mhmm. That was a story for Forbes about it called How I Met Godzilla on Wall Street. Because Godzilla is my name for kind of, like, the scaly monster of fear and institutional Yeah. Bureaucracy and just kind of sludge and all of that that bad energy, and it was big time enforced there in in the basement on on, exchange place back then. And, I knew it knew it wasn't gonna be a great thing when I left orientation and went to my department, and no one said hi or spoke to me. And then it was lunchtime, and they all went to the cafeteria at eight together.

Liz Ryan [00:08:22]:

And I walked over like, hi. I'm the new girl. And they just didn't even look at me or speak to me. I said,

Leah Alter [00:08:28]:

oh my gosh.

Liz Ryan [00:08:30]:

But, anyway, so I was registering again in Chicago and happy again and then, at an outdoor cafe, and then it got cold. And the owner said, you know, this is an outdoor cafe. I only keep one person for the winter. And, so you're gonna need to get another job. I said, okay. No problem. I can get another job. I've waited tables for a while.

Liz Ryan [00:08:52]:

Went to some other restaurants, and they said, sweetie, you gotta be 21 to serve alcohol, therefore, to work at a restaurant that serves alcohol in in Illinois at that time, and I wasn't. I was 19. So that's why I was forced back indoors to an office job, and it just so happened that I went to a greeting card company called recycled paper Greetings. It was, Sandra Boynton was the artist. She's, licensed all over. Hippo birdie to yous and Yeah. The hippos and the birdies and all the turkeys and very fun stuff. She's a really, really interesting person herself.

Liz Ryan [00:09:26]:

But I was running customer service for them. And when I was 24, my boss, the VP of operations, said I'm making you HR manager. And I said, how did I offend you? What did I do wrong? Why do you say that? I said, well, just because, I mean, that's kinda like the biggest trope there is. HR, kind of super not fundamental. No offense. But let's be honest. I'm in the middle of the business right now. You're pulling me out of the business.

Liz Ryan [00:09:57]:

HR, not a great wreck. It seems like an odd thing for someone that you would otherwise think is kinda halfway doing. He said, no. That's he said, look. We're about to grow really big. We have to hire a gazillion people, and it has to be a great place to work. So we want you to do those two things. And if you don't like the way other people do HR, then you do it differently.

Liz Ryan [00:10:15]:

So he's a really, really, really great manager. Yeah. I said, yeah. Let's go. Let's do it. And so we grew. You know, I there were there were 30 people when I started in the company. And when I left, there were, I don't know, 2,000, something like that.

Liz Ryan [00:10:29]:

Wow. And so and then went to another company that had also that kind of massive growth. And, and the whole time I was doing HR, I thought this this is how to do it. I mean, it it's just it's just night and day. Why is there so much fear? Why were you just sort of assumed to be in trouble or at the edge of being in trouble? Why is there this kind of punitive, heavy? It's not necessary. It's not helpful. It doesn't do anything good for the company, and, it's it's pointless. It's pointless.

Liz Ryan [00:11:00]:

And, there's a way to not do that, but you have to let go of pretty much everything we were taught about what it means to be a manager or a leader or an HR person or employee. And now I feel like finally all these years later, people are starting to kinda little bit speak with their own voice.

Leah Alter [00:11:18]:

Yeah. And

Liz Ryan [00:11:19]:

and thank goodness. Thank goodness.

Leah Alter [00:11:21]:

Well and on that same kind of vein, I think one of the most impactful coaching elements that you offer is about helping people really, like, step into their power. That's what it you state, to have lives and careers that they love and deserve. And when I think back on, you know, the last 40 something guests that we've had, a lot of them tell stories of these, like, kind of pivotal moments when they've had to step into that power and and and own that to to achieve what they wanted to achieve, to live the life they wanted to achieve. So how does one even begin that process?

Liz Ryan [00:12:01]:

Well, I think that I I got I had an advantage because I had no intention of spending two seconds in the business world as a kid. My dad went to, got we were in Northern New Jersey, got on the bus in a suit, went to New York, was a magazine publisher, came back. I said, you know, I don't know that much about your dad your job, dad, but it it seems boring. No offense. He said, no. It's really, really interesting and fun. I have great conversations. He said, whatever the business does is not important.

Liz Ryan [00:12:28]:

It's the people and the energy and solving problems and using your brain. That's what makes jobs fun, these kinds of jobs. It's not that the product is cool. This was magazines about business and and and construction and all kinds of stuff. He said it's not that. Could be anything. And it's good because I ended up working for a greeting card company and then a data communications company, a modem company. And a lot of people don't get excited about modems, but it was the people and the energy and and the passion.

Liz Ryan [00:12:55]:

And so my dad said, if you ever work in a business world, I mean, you know, that's not your first choice, but it's fun. And it can be really, really fun, but don't take in any of the brainwashing. This is before people started saying, don't drink the Kool Aid. But that's what he was saying. He said the hierarchy, the big titles, it's all made up. If someone's trustworthy, you're gonna know because they say things that are trustworthy people say. You're gonna trust your instincts. Somebody has a big title.

Liz Ryan [00:13:25]:

Don't be intimidated by them. If you if you're conscious that someone's trying to intimidate you, that's their fear. Who tries to intimidate an entry level employee other than somebody who that's the only person they can intimidate. Right? You said so it's just like the rules when you were nine years old on the playground. Those are the exact same rules in the business world. You follow that fundamental human, trust the people you can trust, and, you know, sort of, you know, trust your instincts and speak your truth, you're you're gonna be fine. Because not every company is right for you. Not every manager is right for you.

Liz Ryan [00:14:02]:

And, of course, we now say only the people who get you, who value you, deserve you. Yes. You don't have to impress anyone. First thing I noticed when I started, career coaching as a business was that the most accomplished, amazing, vibrant, cool, smart, funny, warm, creative people, when they go into job search mode, even if they're not unemployed and they're not the slightest bit desperate, they focus almost instinctively on what they don't have. You know, I don't have an MBA. I don't have any kind of master's degree. I don't have this. I don't have that.

Liz Ryan [00:14:40]:

And then we have to, like, shit. Who said you should? Why are you focused on that? Well, other people will. Yes. Some people have everything. Some people have, you know, freckles. People have whatever, mohawks. Why would you you are awesome. Get that.

Liz Ryan [00:14:57]:

Feel that. Journal about it. You know, meditate about it. You are amazing like most of these folks out here don't even deserve you. Do not externalize and say, what if somebody doesn't like this? Then they're welcome to have a long and happy life without you in it. Yeah. Well, and

Joanna Ehresman [00:15:14]:

do you think most people aren't even aware because the the rules, the shoulds have been so part of just such a part of how we came up in the career world that it probably is a fair fairly big moment when people realize, like, oh, I don't have to play by these rules. Like, I I think Leah and I have had similar experiences in our careers since going independent that it seems a little silly in my forties to be like, well, wait a minute. You know?

Liz Ryan [00:15:42]:

Oh, so normal. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. They people say, right. I don't need every one of these jobs. No. You don't. I say you might need if you do need a job, then you need a job, not this job.

Liz Ryan [00:15:58]:

However, this is not the job you need. And so we don't wanna go on a job search like, I hope these folks like me. I hope these folks like me. No. I hope you like them, or I don't even hope because mother nature's in charge. Right? It's like if you were going on a series of blind dates with people you didn't know, you wouldn't hope that these strangers like you. You would say, well, this will be interesting. I'll meet someone.

Liz Ryan [00:16:20]:

We'll talk, and maybe there's some is there some chemistry. Maybe there's not. It's all good. Either way, same thing with the job interview. And when you can, over time, really take that in that that point of view, that perspective, you're so much more confident. When you don't care whether you get the job, you're that much more appealing because you're a person. You're a whole content in yourself person. And these and consultants learn this fast.

Liz Ryan [00:16:46]:

Right? Independent or learn this. Like, I am not here to pander or or beg somebody for the business. That's the worst thing I could do. And it and so I always encourage people to at least put a toe in the water with consulting even if they're dyed in the wool corporate or institutional people because they get those muscles that you both have that nobody can take away from you.

Joanna Ehresman [00:17:11]:

Yeah. Well, and you're forced to build them, though. I think that just relates so much to my own journey. There is very much this, like, people pleasing. I follow the corporate rules. And then when you're, you know, out on your own and you're deciding, wait. I get to make the rules. And, yeah, I don't need to take on every client even though I'm starting my business.

Joanna Ehresman [00:17:29]:

It's just such an interesting growth,

Leah Alter [00:17:33]:

like, growth

Joanna Ehresman [00:17:34]:

area that Yeah. I I'm so grateful for. Yeah. Yeah. It because it just opened my eyes in so many ways.

Liz Ryan [00:17:41]:

It's the best growth. And and and it's what's interesting to me is being an HR leader for a thousand years and administering, you know, or overseeing training programs with rooms. We used to be physical training only. Right? Yeah. Right. Sales training, communications training, all this stuff, technical training. Personal growth wasn't even a topic. Getting stronger.

Liz Ryan [00:18:03]:

What? What do you mean? Now you're getting stronger in your skills. When managers freak out over employment gaps, that's another scam. Total fear. Oh, you took a gap. Were you in the terrorist training camp? Like, what? No. I live living on I always say, well, I wanted to check what you were doing to see if you were working on your skills. Now why the hell would I need to do that? I've worked here for eighteen years, and I took six month off, and you think that something's gonna degrade? Have you met actual people? That doesn't happen. Yeah.

Liz Ryan [00:18:34]:

That doesn't happen. Nelson Mandela was, what, twenty years in prison. They came out. He's present. He's fine. He's perfect. You don't you still don't degrade. That's goofy.

Liz Ryan [00:18:43]:

That's that's just complete fear. And and so when managers, you know, get get freaked out and they say, well, were you working on your skills? They never think, yeah. I was becoming myself. I was becoming the person that I've been and and and, actually, the job impeded me in that. And it was only when I took that time, I said, I know myself now. I know what I need, what I deserve. And the question, what were you doing during that gap is disqualifying on your part, and I'm actually out of here. Thank you.

Liz Ryan [00:19:11]:

Have a great day. Because you get stronger. And and we say growth, but, really, growth can be very, very scary to managers and to Yes. Very scary.

Joanna Ehresman [00:19:22]:

Right. Like someone coming into their power.

Leah Alter [00:19:25]:

Yes. Yeah. Being less manageable.

Liz Ryan [00:19:28]:

Being less manageable, less malleable. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I I was a girl scout patrol leader. We're interviewing girl scouts.

Leah Alter [00:19:37]:

I got in the club.

Liz Ryan [00:19:38]:

Did you

Joanna Ehresman [00:19:38]:

get kicked out of girl scouts?

Leah Alter [00:19:40]:

I got kicked out well, a brown a brownies for being a little mouthy. So any anyone that knows me knows that's not a far stretch.

Liz Ryan [00:19:49]:

Okay. That's that is like a punk rock band. Kicked out of brownies.

Leah Alter [00:19:56]:

I was an opinionated child.

Liz Ryan [00:19:59]:

I got kicked out of brownies. So I didn't have the hotspot at that time. I stayed in, but it took longer, but I love that. Oh, it just feels like the ripped sash with the marathon. Get out. No.

Leah Alter [00:20:12]:

It was more of, like, the you know, they had to pull my mom aside and let Aw. Let her know. And she had she had to tell me, which I was like, whatever. Look. I'll go eat. You know? I'm gonna make mud pies.

Liz Ryan [00:20:25]:

Oh, that's the spirit, though. That's the spirit. Yeah. I mean, getting stronger is kind of on one hand our our our goal, but it's the one thing we seldom talk about at work. Yeah. It's funny how the all that training that I mentioned that every company does negotiation skills, but they don't teach you how to negotiate with your employer.

Joanna Ehresman [00:20:46]:

Right. Right. It goes not to the employer's advantage. Right?

Liz Ryan [00:20:48]:

That's not their advantage. So so just just at least opening up a conversation about this, disparity. And and and if you go further, sometimes, you know, brainwashing, indoctrination, fear based management, and all that is itself a healthy thing. And any time that a person can start that conversation at work and, I mean, it it's crazy how even now, 2025 on LinkedIn, I get messages every single day, DMs, that say, I wanted to comment on your column or your post, but I didn't dare do it publicly because my manager monitors our stuff. Oh, that's a good use of a manager's time Right. Browsing around LinkedIn to see what the underlings are saying. So you don't even speak with your these are not, by the way, you know, radical thoughts. They're while you've seen my posts, it's, you know, comments on the side of people.

Liz Ryan [00:21:40]:

That's managerial malpractice right there. And so the question is you're writing to me, and that's fine. I appreciate I appreciate the note. But if you can't post something or even like a post on LinkedIn because your manager wouldn't like it, really the question is why do they still deserve you? Why does that manager still deserve you? Isn't it time to say I am 36 or 45, 60 two years old, whatever. Why the heck am I still working for this person who is so obviously not qualified to be any kind of mentor or leader to me, role model, or anything like that?

Leah Alter [00:22:15]:

So true. So true. And before we jump into our next question, we wanna take a moment to say that we are so proud to be partnering with Extella where exceptional service is the standard.

Joanna Ehresman [00:22:29]:

Yes. Extela elevates and empowers financial professionals to build a stellar practice and leave a lasting impact for their clients, which is what binds so much of us so many of us in this industry anyway. Explore how Extela goes above and beyond for their professionals by visiting go.extella.com/womenshare. That's go.axtella.com/womenshare. So, Liz, back to you. You state that we all need to think and act as CEOs and entrepreneurs now, whether we're, you know, still working corporate or working for ourselves, I would love to just go deeper into that and hear some practical ways that our listeners can apply this in their everyday career.

Liz Ryan [00:23:11]:

Sure. The first thing is to look at, as as you mentioned just a minute ago, Joanna, how we were not taught to do that and just question that. Just just just focus on that a little bit and say, wow. I learned so much in school, and I learned so much outside of school from adults around me and just watching the world operate. And I learned what to focus on and what to value, you know, following orders, sitting in rows, doing the work. You know, the work in school is called work. It's called work. Right.

Liz Ryan [00:23:45]:

You know, the school will work. And I didn't learn to find my own voice, to listen to my own heart, to, be tuned in to a frequency about what enriches and nourishes me, to develop my own path or think of my career as something that I run. Why didn't I learn that especially as the working world started to shift away from the old cradle to grave employment model from the post World War two era starting in the eighties to a completely, like, you're on your own every person for themselves model where, as we see around us right now, you can get laid off at the drop of a hat for no reason whatsoever. Surely, by now, we should be teaching people it's your career to run. You are the CEO of your life and career. We talk about financial models. People have said for years, your house, if you have a house or a condo, that's your biggest asset. No.

Liz Ryan [00:24:46]:

Your career to run, it dwarfs your house for most folks. Right? So how you run that and the degree to which you actively run it is everything. It starts with the that awareness. This somebody handed me the keys whether I wanted them or not, and now I have to drive the vehicle. I have to decide where it's going. I have to gas it up. I have to provide the fuel. And then most of all, I cannot let anybody else be in charge of my welfare and my ability to pay the rent.

Liz Ryan [00:25:19]:

Meaning, we can never get comfortable at a job. Never. Being an entrepreneur is not that much different from being a a working person, a a an employee if that employee is powered up and and taking the reins. If they're not, then, yeah, it's night and day. But the reason that a person who gets laid off is very often in a much worse position than an entrepreneur, a a consultant who loses a client is because the consultant says, well, I didn't love losing that client, but whatever. I'll get another client. They got the muscles. Person who has never developed muscles because no one ever told them they should is devastated.

Liz Ryan [00:25:59]:

As I mentioned earlier, they immediately say to me, I don't have this. I don't have that. I don't know if I'm any good. You don't know if you're good? You've been a director of whatever, of risk. You've been this. You've been that. You don't know if you're good? Is it just the layoff? Yes. It's the layoff.

Liz Ryan [00:26:16]:

It shook my confidence. 4,000 people got laid off. It had nothing to do with you. I know, but it still feels personal. We have to proactively work against that when we're employed, not just wait until we're not employed and the ax falls, and then I have to start working on my self esteem. I think everybody should interview for jobs every year, couple three to four times, whether they love their job or not. And if you don't do that, it's borderline irresponsible because you have to be ready. It's 10 times more important to know how to be able to get a job and have the mindset for that than to be able to do the job because, obviously, it's harder to get a job than it is to do a job, virtually every job.

Liz Ryan [00:26:56]:

So there are active steps that you can take toward running your career. So if you do lose your job or find it untenable and decide to bail, it's an inconvenience. It's a hassle, but it's not devastating. It's not disastrous.

Leah Alter [00:27:12]:

Yeah. Wow. That's like a mic drop moment. I I absolutely love that. I mean, I think we get so comfortable in our jobs and, yeah, we're happy enough or, you know, we got that raise. So those things that bother me don't bother me as much anymore because I got a little more money, the golden handcuffs. You know? There's all these things. So working on that confidence and those skills while you're happy in a job is, like, gosh.

Leah Alter [00:27:43]:

That's game changing. Okay, Liz. We ask every guest who comes on the show, and I feel like you're the perfect guest to ask this question to. What is the best career advice that you have ever received?

Liz Ryan [00:27:58]:

Well, I mentioned my dad before who kind of inoculated me a little bit and said, just don't take any of this business stuff too seriously. Don't let anybody decide how you feel about yourself. You get in trouble, somebody yells at you. They they kick you out of brownies, you know, anything like that. You say, consider the source. It doesn't matter. You know? And and and and I've tried to take that to heart. But I would say from people, that I actually worked with, my boss my boss, at US Robotics, the the tech company that I worked for, I started there as employee, I think, one zero five.

Liz Ryan [00:28:36]:

And when I left, there were 10,000 of us, so the company went public and grew a lot. And he said, my job as the president and and your job as the leader of HR is to run ahead of the pack here and remove obstacles, clear away obstacles. Anything that's gonna keep people from just racing down their path unimpeded, doing what they do well and love with other people who are doing what they do well and love. It's all about taking away obstacles. Any obstacle in the way, get rid of it. If it's red tape bureaucracy, if it's political stuff, if it's role confusion, if it's dumb, you know, jurisdictional conflicts between departments, just stupid stuff. Get rid of it. Get rid of it.

Liz Ryan [00:29:20]:

Get rid of it. And if I do something dumb, then you tell me. And if you do something dumb, you know, I'll tell you or somebody else will. And we just won't do that stuff anymore because we're just gonna be smart and and and and wise about people. We know how people operate, and that's the job more than anything else.

Joanna Ehresman [00:29:36]:

Yeah. What a wise leader too. And Yeah. And and just, like, the framing of how you would approach any interaction, any meeting. Right? Like, how empowering for you to have that mandate. Right, and

Liz Ryan [00:29:50]:

to Absolutely. I I I I really lucked out, with my employers. And and I think that, you know, for HR people, you can't work for a dysfunctional. You if you do, then it it crushes you and your brand and your brand. Because all you have to sell to the next employer is what did you accomplish at the last one. And if you didn't, you know, then it's just like salespeople and marketing people, lots of people, engineering people. You have to be able to say, here's what I did and that that made a difference. And if there isn't anything like that, you can't stay.

Liz Ryan [00:30:25]:

You can't stick around. Yeah. And you have to know that your compass inside is the best one and the only one that matters. It's like you and your employer are on the same highway together in parallel, but at some point, you're gonna veer off. And you have to be aware of that. They're not. That's not their issue. That's not their problem.

Liz Ryan [00:30:42]:

But the idea that the paths will just stay in sync for thirty five years, forty years is not nowadays It's not reality. Foolish. Not reality.

Joanna Ehresman [00:30:51]:

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Man, I can't wait to relisten to this episode already. That's all been good. Liz, outside of the great work you're doing at Human Workplace, what else can we celebrate with you today? We love Oh. Celebrating our guests. What what can we celebrate?

Liz Ryan [00:31:07]:

What can we celebrate? Work related, not work related? Well, either one. But Okay. Let's see. Come back. All of our kids are doing amazing, amazing things, but one of them is now playing the trombone on Broadway. So that's kind of a fun play. Yeah. Oh, yay.

Liz Ryan [00:31:22]:

So, you know, you think of careers as, like, you know, you go and do a w two job, and I certainly have done that for years and years. You guys did it, but, there's all kinds of careers. And when you play trombone, you know, there's not very many w two jobs. But there's things like playing the trombone for Broadway shows, which is just too much fun. And, you know, so so it's we make our own paths. And I guess, you know, in a way, kinda my thesis is that that sort of path is not really any different from someone who does work a w two job and applies for jobs and wears tie and jacket or whatever, heels, whatever, because you're still in if you're in charge. If you're running it, it's just as free form and freelancy as that Broadway Musician's career, except it happens to come in w two clothing. And, really, if you embrace that mindset that we are all entrepreneurs, and that's the only mindset we can have now, that's the only perspective we can have, is an entrepreneurial perspective and constantly be course checking.

Liz Ryan [00:32:24]:

You know, you you leave, you stay, you start a side business, you start a a thought leadership platform, you do what you need to do for yourself financially, creatively, philosophically, whatever, you're gonna be rooted. You're gonna be you're gonna be solid versus ever, ever accepting the view that your employer is more powerful than you are. That's absurd. Why? What? No. Ridiculous. There's so a lot of people are hiring. A lot of people are hiring. Yeah.

Liz Ryan [00:32:51]:

It's never just one firm that's brainwashing. It's very intense that, that anybody would think employers are more powerful than I am. What? That's that's pure, nonsense.

Joanna Ehresman [00:33:04]:

I wish my 30 year old self could be part of this conversation. Right? Like, there's so much that's so but just

Leah Alter [00:33:11]:

Well, and how many times I was told, like, it's not better somewhere else.

Liz Ryan [00:33:16]:

And what a weird quote to say.

Leah Alter [00:33:18]:

Right? To keep me where where I was. They're like, I've been I've been other places. Yeah. I've been other places, and it's not better. So

Liz Ryan [00:33:28]:

Oh, yeah. They see it. That's what people say, grass is greener. Yeah. And sometimes it is. And you know what? It's not just whether the grass is green. If my body says this grass is not green enough for me, I owe it to myself to go check it out and learn what green grass looks and feels like. Amen.

Liz Ryan [00:33:44]:

How dare you? How dare you tell me don't go anywhere else because it's dangerous. Really, change is the only way we grow, and that's how our muscles get huge. And that's why consultants don't have these fears because they've been in and out of so many organizations that you know, I figure out in about a week what each organization is like, what they need, how they tick. It's not a big deal. But if you're afraid to leave and you got people telling me, yes. Stay afraid. It's not it's scary out there. Well, then give me a contract.

Liz Ryan [00:34:18]:

If it's scary out there, give me a freaking contract that says that if you guys lay me off, I get six months or a year of salary, then we'll have a conversation. We get that hit on The United States. It's the only industrialized nation that doesn't have contracts for employees. Every single other industrialized country in the world has contracts. And people in Europe and Asia and elsewhere are, like, blown away when they say, let's people put their head on the pillow and go to sleep at night, and they could be laid off tomorrow. I said, yeah. Most of us have. Yeah.

Liz Ryan [00:34:49]:

Get get out of here. No. No. It's real. They can change your salary. They can change your hours. They can change your title without your permission. Yeah.

Liz Ryan [00:34:56]:

That's nuts. Yes. Yes. It is.

Joanna Ehresman [00:34:59]:

Well, this is our wake up call that gosh. Yeah. We don't have to accept the nuttiness of it all. This is great. Yeah. Liz, I can imagine whoever is listening to this within our our audience here would love to follow you or learn more. What's the best place to direct them to?

Liz Ryan [00:35:14]:

How can they get connected with what you have to say? Me well, it on my LinkedIn profile, all all the socials, there's a tap link where you can follow me or see my stuff on any, you know, on TikTok and, blue sky and Instagram and whatever, Twitter, x, Facebook. But, but you can also find me at human workplace dot com, which is my website.

Leah Alter [00:35:36]:

Yeah. This has been an amazing conversation. Thank you again so much for coming on the show. And thanks again to our sponsor, Extella, and network affirms that elevates every experience for their financial professionals. Visit go.extella.com/womenshare. That's go.axtella.com/womenshare.

Joanna Ehresman [00:36:00]:

And with that, that's our show for today. If ours is a mission that you want to share in, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcast platform. With that,

Leah Alter [00:36:08]:

I'm Joanna Ehresman. And I'm Leah Alter, and we'll catch you on the next episode of WomenShare.