Making Progress: The State of Women in the Wealth Management Industry

Julie Ragatz [00:00:00]: I think for me, probably the most important finding we were able to discover is really the importance of of sponsorship and the importance of distinguishing mentorship from sponsorship and the challenges with pulling apart those threads as a as a woman in the industry and making sure you have both effective mentorship and effective sponsorship as well.

Leah Alter [00:00:33]: Hello, and Welcome. I'm Leah Alter, and I'm Joanna Ehresman. And this is Women Share, a marketing guide For women in financial services. Today's episode is sponsored by 994 Group. A big thank you to Kristen LeClair and Pete Markovich for being our 1st Pay It Forward sponsor, giving guests of WomenShare the opportunity to Pay it forward by sponsoring a feature episode. 994 Groups probably sounds familiar. Episode 3, Kristen was our guest. They provide wealth management and financial planning for clients.

Leah Alter [00:01:10]: However, they what they do is not about the money, but rather the money is a tool to multiply joy in life.

Joanna Ehresman [00:01:17]: You can learn more at 994group.com. Today, we are talking about the State of women in the wealth management industry. It's early 2024, so this is a perfect time to zoom out and look at where we stand. And the perfect guest to join us for this discussion is Julie Ragatz, PhD. Julie is vice president, next Jen and advisor development programs at Carson Group, and she's an author of Carson's 2023 State of Women in Wealth Management report. Now while she's been in the financial services industry for several several years, Julie's career roots are in academia, including 8 years as director of the Center For Ethics and Financial Services at the American College of Financial Services and 10 years as an adjunct professor at Villanova University. But what's great about Julie is how well she translates the academic to the practical, and we are so eager to hear what she has to say About the state of women in the industry. With that, Julie, welcome to Women's Share.

Julie Ragatz [00:02:17]: Oh my gosh. And there I was, like, after that beautiful introduction, and not finding my my unmute button. What a lovely introduction. I'm so happy to be with you guys today.

Leah Alter [00:02:25]: Well, we are just thrilled to have you here They we loved our initial conversation with you. And, honestly, we've just kind of both been buzzing since that conversation. We're so excited For our listeners, I have a chance to hear from you. Your team combed through a ton of data during this Putting this report together, what would you say is the most impactful takeaway for you?

Julie Ragatz [00:02:51]: I I always love when people ask me questions about the most important finding, and I'm always like, well, gosh. There's so many different it's like picking between your favorite children. I think, for me, Probably the most important finding we were able to discover is really the importance of of sponsorship and the importance of distinguishing mentorship from sponsorship, and the challenges with, pulling apart those threads as a as a woman in the industry and making sure you have both to mentorship and effective sponsorship as well.

Joanna Ehresman [00:03:22]: Oh, excellent. And and that's something I wanna we'll be digging into the the nuance between the 2 or maybe not even nuance, but the different Definitions. And, overall, do you feel like the findings, is it optimistic? Is it realistic? Is it pessimistic? Like, how do you feel like Women would feel reading the findings of the report.

Julie Ragatz [00:03:41]: That is such a great question. I don't think I've gotten that question yet. I I've been working and doing research on women in wealth management for almost a decade, and I think that women would be discouraged by the lack of progress that we've seen. I think that there are reasonable expectations of women working in this industry and women coming in this industry, that we would be further along than we are now, that many of the issues that seem to be perennially Challenging for women, continue to be perennially challenging. I think, though, that it is difficult to understand the state of women in wealth management without understanding that within a larger context, which is which is the role of women in in professional life in general. And so I think that our study is is kind of shed some light on the experience of particular women working within an industry of a space and time. I think a lot of our findings do resonate with women's lived experience outside the financial services industry, which is not surprising. I don't think they would be surprised.

Julie Ragatz [00:04:47]: I don't think there's anything in here that women would be like, oh, yikes. Wow. That's that's not something I would have thought of or observed. I think the bigger question which you are getting at is, you know, how would women feel maybe in terms of forward lookingness? And Are they optimistic about the future? Are they optimistic about the progress that they that they see being made? And I would answer a qualified yes on that, that there does seem to be some optimism, that there is momentum, growing momentum in some firms behind the the progress of of women's experiences. But I don't think anybody would be uniformly satisfied by where we are now.

Joanna Ehresman [00:05:22]: Well said. Well said. And I think having read it, that's where I was like, oh, wish wish it wasn't as It is. However, it resonates with me, the findings of the study and my experience, but also, I think a big part of why we wanted to have you on today and continue this conversation here on WomenShare is to do our part, right, to say, hey. How can we take action individually within the Women's Share community to help advance This so excited to continue this discussion. Now tell me, so why did Carson get into doing this study? What's the goal of continuing this work for Carson Group?

Julie Ragatz [00:05:58]: It's you know, it's it so I'm relatively new to Carson. I've been here for almost 3 years, and this is the 2nd year of our women in wealth management report. And I was fortunate enough to be involved with the first incarnation of it as well. You know, one of the things I I truly love about Carson is that we just really have this ethos of being imperfect and curious and striving. Right? So I think when Carson looks to solve a problem or kind of explore an issue, I think we wanna do that in a way that's really transparent and that's really collaborative and that invites people into our process. And so that's really what this report was designed to do is to say, well, this is, you know, Carson's report. It's a part of a larger event that we cohost with other organizations in the industry, Excel represent. But it's very much, we're gonna put our we're gonna put our foot out there.

Julie Ragatz [00:06:48]: We're gonna put our resources out there. We're gonna try to create some knowledge that will help us at the same time as helping the rest of the industry. And I think there's a there's a bravery in that, and there's a courage in that. You mentioned earlier, part of my background was that I was, a research I was the director of the Center For Ethics. That was a not for profit organization housed within the American College. As a researcher, it gave me tremendous, opportunities to explore ethical issues. You guys are marketers. You're really, really smart.

Julie Ragatz [00:07:20]: You can probably understand very readily why companies didn't wanna sponsor research on ethics in the business. Right? Like, let me put mine in my report about being ethical. Alright? Because the idea is is that you're either investigating because you don't know anything about it, which isn't great, or you're trying to hold yourself up as better or different than somebody else. And the same challenges that happen when individuals, you know, have ethical beliefs and they feel uncomfortable sharing them is is really, Gosh. Do I put a target on my back? And and creating an opportunity for everybody to say, Wow. Look at that company over there. Don't they think a lot of themselves? And let's take them down a peg or 2. And so what I love about what we did here is we really tried to go out and say, okay.

Julie Ragatz [00:08:03]: I mean, we're not perfect. We're we're striving. We're curious. We're imperfect, but we are trying to be better. And we're proud of who we are. We're proud of where we're going, but we're willing to invite people into that conversation. I think there's a risk in doing that because it does. It does kinda put, you know, gosh, well, let let's look at Carson and and see where it's fallen short.

Julie Ragatz [00:08:22]: But we welcome those conversations. So I kinda went on on that. I think it's a very unique position

Leah Alter [00:08:28]: It is.

Julie Ragatz [00:08:29]: That we are. I I don't see a lot of other people in the space creating this sort of independent research, and then kinda going out there and talking about it. So I'm proud of us. I encourage other companies to do the same so we can all learn together.

Leah Alter [00:08:42]: Absolutely. And I think that that was one of the big takeaways from our initial conversation for both Joanna And myself was the vulnerability, the willingness to put yourself out there. Those are both things that are very important to us and what we try to do on this show. So for us, it's it's exciting, and I'd we both believe that the progress comes When we shine a light on the issues, whether we're what and whatever our individual collective involvement is. Right? And one of those things that came up in the report that we just love too and we'd love to get into this with you is this nurture versus nature And around women sort of being naturally more empathetic, the ability for them to connect with clients, and being put into roles That maybe weren't the adviser or the leadership roles because of this. And we'd love to hear from your research What has kind of come from that?

Julie Ragatz [00:09:45]: Yeah. Oh gosh. This is my favorite soapbox. You know, I think, certainly, in our survey data and especially in our in our interviews, both from men and both from male and female respondents, and this resonates certainly with research other than our own, is that, you know, women are successful because they're naturally good at relationship building. They're naturally empathic. They're able to build connections. They're willing to have hard conversations. They're good communicators.

Julie Ragatz [00:10:13]: They are comfortable talking about intangible wealth, like values and purpose, and that and and that they do so naturally. And for me, I I I nod and I nod and I nod until that very last statement because I think that that is I think that that that that is a closing statement and not an opening one. I think that there is, you know, tremendously, The, you know, long chain of research that would talk about women as as being socially constituted to be nurturers and that they're rewarded for demonstrating nurturing type behavior, what we call in, you know, kind of the literature prosocial behavior, behavior that tends to the promotion of relationships and that those skills are important for building community and building connection and that women are rewarded for developing them and demonstrating them in a way men are. Right? Men are rewarded in our society at this moment in time for demonstrating, you know, kind of maybe pro autonomy characteristics of being aggressive and independent and autonomous. And so I think that What we see in the report and I think what we see in the industry is it is, is a population that is hungering for connection from its professional advisers, whether that's its physicians or its attorneys or its or its financial advisers. I think we see women who are uniquely poised to meet the moment of where that where where that market demand or client demand is coming from. I think it's tremendous that they're able to take advantage of that. I also think that to be a financial adviser, you need to be more than empathic, and women bring those skill sets to the table as well.

Julie Ragatz [00:11:49]: I think that male financial advisers can be pathic too. So for me, it's saying what a wonderful character set of characteristics that we need to be successful in this business. There are some segments of the adviser population who've been trained, really, through a variety of circumstances to develop these. And I say that in a very non normative neutral way. How wonderful for them. Right? And isn't that great? But at the same time, let's not Close off that development of men to develop those characteristics. Let's not say that they're not because a corollary of that is that they're not natural impacts. I mean, I don't know if I feel com as comfortable with that either.

Julie Ragatz [00:12:26]: Right? Yeah. So I think it's a really easy thing to switch into this nature versus nurture. I think when we say it's nature, we preclude people's possibilities and potential, and I I just have never been very comfortable with that.

Joanna Ehresman [00:12:41]: I love it. And we'll end as a a parent of 3 sons, personally. You know, I've it just really stuck with me of being mindful of that Conditioning or just not I don't know. Being mindful of gender norms, I guess, and how we're raising our children. Who knows? Chances are we're still gonna screw them up somehow, but at least try.

Julie Ragatz [00:13:01]: It's always good if we can screw them up in novel ways. I feel like that is progress.

Joanna Ehresman [00:13:06]: I have 4 daughters,

Julie Ragatz [00:13:07]: and my my husband will often and they're all pretty young. They're all pretty close in age, and and my husband often just looks very confused. Like, everything was fine. Why is everybody crying? You know? And so he but, you know, there's a great example kind of in my own life. My husband's an amazingly empathic, caring person who, You know? Has a profession that's very oriented towards, you know, social justice and and and and connecting with people at a human level. And, You know? I I think that's wonderful for him, and and it's been a great advantage to him as he's, you know, built and maintained his career as well.

Joanna Ehresman [00:13:43]: And back to taking the longer view and reasons for optimism, I feel like the generations coming up will be hopefully more exposed to the variety of Empathic men and women who are more assertive. And, you know, like, it's not just so binary.

Julie Ragatz [00:13:58]: I think you're right. And, again, what's happening in our industry and the Crosscurrents and trends we see are not divorced or in any way separated from the larger cult cultural context.

Leah Alter [00:14:07]: Yeah.

Julie Ragatz [00:14:08]: So as we read articles about men, you know, you know, different versions of kind of masculinity evolving or changing or shifting or broadening or expanding. I mean, that's inevitably gonna impact our business. Probably not yet. But, you know, the trends are

Leah Alter [00:14:23]: probably We might be pretty far down on the list of 3 maybe. These days. We maybe.

Julie Ragatz [00:14:30]: And I think one of the challenges, though, is that The same and this this did pop up in some of our interview data. You know, when you have the expectation that women are naturally suited towards maintaining social relationships, in cooperative behavior. There's a lot of emotional labor, in real labor actually, that falls on women to perform. And so that's the kind of rounding to everybody and making sure people are okay after a meeting. You know, the the kind of, You know, little tiny seemingly tiny steps women take to make sure people feel comfortable in a room or to make sure the temperature or if the room is okay. And and women experience that as a burden, and that is very, very fair and very true.

Leah Alter [00:15:13]: Well and and Kind of even a step further, just thinking about my own experience where I was, like, when that wasn't necessarily my natural reaction to things, Almost being punished or talked to that I didn't instinctually do all of those things. And I was like, wait. Well, nobody else did. And why is that why is that for me to do? And I I was sad that that was I was Always just so confused. I think that that's the word I'm looking for is confused as to why that experience needed to be different from me than anyone else that within the room.

Julie Ragatz [00:15:53]: I don't think you're alone in that experience, and it and it is confusing. And, because a lot of what the norms that women navigate are unspoken, but very, very, very truly felt in that moment. And, and the expectations, even if they're not articulated, are understood. And that's the context in which women operate as professionals in our society. And you certainly make the case that our industry has some elements that make that even more prevalent because what our industry has historically celebrated, the independent, autonomous producer who hunts meaning in our language, you know, he hunts. What a weird Right? And are you trying to help me?

Leah Alter [00:16:31]: Eat what you kill.

Julie Ragatz [00:16:33]: Right? It's just so wacky. Like, what is strange? Like, women wouldn't come up with language like that. I mean, I'm gonna go out and eat But I feel like really like, I mean but that whole celebration of that is you know? And it probably has been used to excuse a fair amount of bad behavior inappropriately. So so, you know, there are spaces where that that rhetoric and that model is still very much alive. But one of the things we talked about in the in the research study was this kind of forced entrepreneurship, this notion that women come into these spaces and they're like, yeah. Maybe I don't wanna eat what I kill. You know, maybe I don't want this to be the year of execution, which kind of frankly sounds, you know, sort of violent. You know? Yeah.

Julie Ragatz [00:17:16]: I wanna create a cultural based in which I feel comfortable and where I thrive. And and I can't find that, so I'm gonna go build that somewhere else. And I think that that's certainly what we've seen Women in the rise of as you guys know better than I do, right, the rise of female focused business oriented business, the rise of of RIAs that have a different cultural field to has been a response to that.

Joanna Ehresman [00:17:38]: That definitely jumped out and resonated with both of us, that trend of, you know, while Women starting their own business and female entrepreneurs are absolutely something to celebrate. There is that dynamic where sometimes There's that forced entrepreneurship in order to have a healthier environment that that just gave me pause. And honestly, Like, it seems clear now, but I hadn't thought of it that way as to why women might be starting their own practices or, you know, branching out. So I feel like that's really insightful. And and we've talked about the fact that, you know, not everybody has the privilege of being able to do that. Right? So what did your study Find along along those lines of any other dynamics of women striking out to start their own thing.

Julie Ragatz [00:18:25]: Well, you know, I think what was really interesting is that I I was not expecting this in the in the study. You know, this one of the the fun things about a longitudinal study is that, you know, year over year, you do see different Things emerge in the data. And so for us, this was a novel finding. This came up really in our interview data, you know, with women kinda talking about their experiences. And so we were able this great research team and team I work with at Carson was able to kinda do some digging on outside research to kinda talk more about that concept and fleshed it out for us as It's a construct to understand. So our research didn't tell us very much other than that it exists. And I think what we're excited about next year is to kinda drill down more on that and, you know, maybe be more specific in our sampling of trying to find female owner business owners. And I talked a little bit more to them about the reasons for doing that.

Julie Ragatz [00:19:15]: What I think we were able to figure out, though, just from the background research, forced entrepreneurship is not a concept unique to the the financial services industry. It's, you know, common in other industries too, certainly the tech industry. But to your point, Joanna, and this is where I think it's it's troubling, although exciting and something that we wanna applaud and encourage, is that This is a difficult industry to strike out on your own in. The amount of of overhead, the amount of support, the amount of knowledge, frankly, you need, to be able to start off your own practice. The amount of financial support you need from other sources if you build your own business makes this very much an opportunity for folks who are, you know, have have resources or a partner who has resources, and that I think is is troubling. You know, we wanna say that there's a marketplace for for dissatisfied people, right, that they at least that, you know, they can go out and and build their own thing. I think we underestimate the cost of that. It would be far better to have environment more environments in which people felt comfortable and forcing everyone who didn't feel comfortable to go and and kinda multiply their own their own kind of new thing to feel like they can do their job well.

Joanna Ehresman [00:20:27]: Well and even, I think, this study and these sorts of conversations will maybe help to empower people who are feeling uncomfortable to broach those conversations, right, and bring it Bring it to light. Like, Leah, you said, we have to bring these things to the fore in order to have some progress. So Interesting.

Leah Alter [00:20:44]: And Joanna and I both had sort of light bulb moments when we were reading the findings of that research being 2 women who struck out on their own this year. Right? That was exactly our experience, which is kind of done Trying to, you know, square peg this corporate life, and we're gonna go try to create something That inspires us and, yeah, where we can truly serve the type of clients we wanna serve and do the work we wanna do without out the noise. Because I don't think either of us were in a situation where we didn't enjoy our work. And I think that was, like, the big kind of, You know, light bulb moment. We both loved the work we were doing. We love the work we're doing now. But, yeah, it it felt forced. It felt like I'm kind of in a in a situation where I have to make a decision, at this point.

Leah Alter [00:21:42]: I this this research, I'm so excited for you guys to continue it because I do think, you know, digging deeper is gonna be, is gonna be great and helpful for all of us. You've mentioned this at the top of the show, and I'd love to dig more into this. So this is another thing that I felt like I had a light Well, moment about learned with the difference between mentorship and sponsorship and even allyship. Chip, I'll throw that 1 in there too. For both men and women in leadership positions and how that can effectively help move this needle and Help individual women achieve their corporate or, you know, career goals.

Julie Ragatz [00:22:30]: Yeah. I think that was very compelling for us. And, You know, we talk a lot about about mentorship in our industry, and mentorship is, essentially, in some ways, a very unhelpful and and we spent some time in the in the research trying to dive into what people what what do you what do you there was an old book that came out years ago. I'm dating myself by an author named Raymond Carver, and the book title is What We Talk About When We Talk About Love. And, I mean, you could write a book, which I won't do. But somebody could write a book that essentially, the title is What We Talk About When We Talk About Mentorship. And, you know, people talk about mentorship in a lot of different ways. They talk about a mentor as someone who offers a lot of profound emotional support, particularly in workplaces that are not viewed as safe for for the person for the mentee in question.

Julie Ragatz [00:23:18]: We talk about mentorship as someone who serves as a connector, right, and is able to connect you with other people to help broaden your network. We Talk about mentors as someone who offers you technical advice. Right? So in our business of financial services, somebody may be a mentor who really just sits with you and explains, like, complicated ways of using trust in estate planning. Right? And we say, well, he's my mentor, but he's really offering technical advice in that in that regard and everything in between, right, and everything in between. And so we view kind of mentorship as someone who's offering you constructive guidance, or feedback, that increases your skill set or knowledge. Right? And that can be whether that's kind of Personally, you know, helping me develop the skills to cope with a situation that may feel hard, serving as a sounding board, serving as a connector, or serving as someone who's really helping my technical skills get better. And that is a very valuable thing. They're all very valuable.

Julie Ragatz [00:24:14]: And there are many people who talk about somebody being their mentor, someone who really showed them the business in in kind of and I didn't mention this in a practice management sense. I'm Sure you've seen this as well. Right? Told me how to schedule. Told me how much activity I needed to do in order to hit my goals. Right? Really provided those those very broad insights into running a business. So you have a business venture. But a sponsor is something that's very unique, and a sponsor is someone who is typically with almost exclusively in your organization, who is advocating for you to have increased, I would say, material opportunities even if those aren't necessarily, you know, immediately renewed or financial. Right? So they are advocating for you to have access to scarce resources.

Julie Ragatz [00:25:00]: So the scarce resources could be promotion. They could be development opportunities. They could be compensation. But they are putting their political capital on the line and in advocating for you, publicly with their peers. And I think the important thing to note there is that sponsorship tends to involve scarcity. So you're advocating for someone to get access to something that's not kind of infinitely multipliable. Right? And that usually means that I have to choose. Am I a sponsor Leah? Am I a sponsor Joanna? And why? Whereas if I'm mentoring you, in theory, I could provide you the same mentorship experience.

Julie Ragatz [00:25:34]: Right? There's The only limit to that is limit of my own resources and time, but I could mentor 5 or 6 women very, very effectively. It would be hard, unless you're in a very large corporation, to effectively that would sponsor the same number of women. And so those would be kind of the the 2 main distinctions between mentorship and and sponsorship.

Joanna Ehresman [00:25:52]: That's really helpful, to just and I think just causes me to reflect personally on, you know, gosh, Have I been more of a mentor or a sponsor? And and have I been sponsored? And I the good news is I feel like I have, thankfully. Right? But I think just that distinction is really important. Can you will you share with our listeners the anecdote of how Someone asks for sponsorship or kind of that like, how do you even approach it?

Julie Ragatz [00:26:23]: Yeah. It's such Such an important thing, Joanna, and one of the things I think is really troubling is that we don't know if people are sponsoring us. You know kind of what we talked about is, right, the Proof is in the pudding. Right? So you shared that you had been sponsored. How did you know that? How do you think you were how did how did you know you were actually being sponsored by

Joanna Ehresman [00:26:41]: Yeah. Well, I I think it wasn't an overt like, they didn't tell me. It was other people in the room who said, yeah. That person has spoken up for you Frequently. So, yeah, it was not an official I didn't ask. Yeah. He didn't say I'm sponsoring you. So And gosh.

Julie Ragatz [00:26:57]: Like, you know, how fortuitous Somebody mentioned that. And if Leo is expecting that person to speak on their behalf, you know, then, you know, she and that that that that's the tricky thing, right, is that we don't always know. And that is the first, that is really the first challenge of sponsorship is that you don't necessarily know if you're being effectively sponsored. And some of the saddest conversations I've had with women have been, I thought somebody was sponsoring me, but maybe they weren't. You know? Maybe they weren't advocating. Maybe when my name came up in conversation, they weren't advocating for me. And and maybe they weren't doing that because they were being disingenuous, or maybe they weren't doing that because they didn't think I expected it, or maybe they weren't doing that because I didn't want it. And the hard thing, particularly, I think women, again, socialized not to have uncomfortable conversations at times or to be demanding or to be aggressive or assertive.

Julie Ragatz [00:27:48]: I think get really anxious around that, and we tend to think, well, I'm sure they're they're I'm sure they're doing what they can, which is never a good way to just in general, if there's, like, 1 takeaway from this conversation to your listeners, just that's just not a good strategy. Like, I'm sure they're doing what they can is not a great strategy. And so one of the things that was shared with me, several years ago when I was apart, although not directly affected by a a corporate reorganization structure. I was someone reached out to me, a very senior woman at a Fortune 50 company that I was working at. And she, you know, sent very nice voice mail. And, you know, it's serious because, like, no one actually ever calls you anymore. I, like, I don't even think I knew how to check my voice mail. I'm like, it's beeping.

Julie Ragatz [00:28:33]: What do I do? And it's indeed, I think she was in my 1st phone call, and She asked if I needed anything and in a very un is there anything I can do for you? This must be very difficult. And in a in a surprising moment, because I'm usually not this planful, I I called, my mentor. And they said, so I got this call from this woman. Her name is Tina. What should I ask for? Right? It's like Santa Claus. And, He said you should ask for her advocacy. And if she doesn't think or she's not comfortable providing it, ask for feedback on what you need to do to earn it. And I was like, oh, that's so good.

Julie Ragatz [00:29:09]: Right? I take no credit for it. And that's exactly what I did. And I said, you know, this is obviously a disruptive situation for me. It's a disruptive situation for my family. I'd like to ask for your advocacy, of my work and kind of opportunities for me. I shared a little bit about what I wanted those to be. You know? I'd like to you know, in my next steps in my career, I'd like to do this, this, in this. And then I close with if there's if there's you know, if you don't if that's not something you feel comfortable with, because I know a lot of people are asking you and and wanting parts of your time.

Julie Ragatz [00:29:39]: What can I do to really own that for you? And she, you know, very like most People will respond positively to a direct request. And, and she did. She she did create that space for me. And we checked in once a quarter, and she did offer me some good feedback. A lot of the feedback was less on the quality of my work and something women tend to not be very great at is I wasn't great at selling it or positioning it very well. So, again, I'm like head down, grinding away, sure somebody's helping me the best they can. You know? And I think women kinda fall into that track. Right? My work speaks for itself.

Julie Ragatz [00:30:18]: That is just not true.

Joanna Ehresman [00:30:19]: Yeah. Somebody's, yeah, somebody's bound to notice how hard I'm working and how great it is, so Let's just keep the faith. Yes.

Leah Alter [00:30:26]: Yep. You know? And that was and that was we had a guest on, earlier in this season. He said, no one's gonna give shit more about your career than you do. Right? And and it was and it's so true. Right? You you have to Take control of that. Ask for what you need, and and be more proactive rather than sitting back being like, I do really good work. I'm sure everyone sees that, and they're just doing the best they can because that only leads to I mean, ultimately, for me, I can only talk about my experience, but that led to burnout and frustration.

Julie Ragatz [00:31:04]: I think that's not uncommon. And, you know, and you can see Very easily a situation in which, you know, you know, I'm heads down doing what I can. Sure somebody's doing everything they can for me, And they're not either because they're bit you know, usually because of a bandwidth issue or or because I haven't articulated what I want my next step to be or I haven't explicitly asked for their advocacy And done what I can to support their goals as well, which is a part of of, you know, sponsorship as well is what are you bringing to the table too? How are you helping them move their goals ahead? And And now I'm burnt out and I'm exhausted and I feel unappreciated, and and so I go start my own thing. And I think there's you know? And and for me, it's It's is there an opportunity to disrupt that by taking positive steps by saying, you know what? I'm gonna ask Your advocacy, I'm gonna be clear what I think my opportunity should be. And I remember in our last year's interview, I had there was a respondent who said that she was really frustrated and formed her own firm because, you know, really and part of her part of her or her reason was I didn't fit she didn't feel like she fit in. There were opportunities for joint work, and she felt like she was continually passed over for those. And she actually approached one of the senior male advisers and and said, you know, gosh. Like, I really like what you do.

Julie Ragatz [00:32:23]: I love your process. I'd love to work with you. And he's like, well, shoot. I just haven't had any female clients. And she's like, well, I work with men too. But it was like this, like, you know, mind blown example on the part of this adviser. And so, sometimes, it's Just and it wasn't enough to kind of, in her mind, you know, make that worthwhile, but she said, oh my gosh. You know? Are we really at that level? And so I think that trying to articulate what you're looking for, trying to ask for someone's advocacy, trying to be really clear from a sponsorship perspective and being selective about who you choose to who you'd like to sponsor you.

Joanna Ehresman [00:33:01]: I

Julie Ragatz [00:33:01]: think is another point too.

Joanna Ehresman [00:33:03]: And the vulnerability, though, of being open to the feedback. You you might get feedback Because, like you mentioned, the sponsor is putting their political capital on the line, right, and and being broaching those conversations and Demonstrating that you are open to a no or the feedback as to why or what it will take. Yeah. It's it's a brave step.

Julie Ragatz [00:33:24]: It is. It is a race that I mean, I'm remembering as you were speaking, Joanna. Like, I so I remember the feedback I got. It was such great feedback. And it was like, everybody thinks you're really smart. She was like, that's cool. Right. Everything's really smart.

Julie Ragatz [00:33:38]: No one's quite sure how you add value to the business. I'm like, other than just being smart, because, like, isn't that enough? I mean, because look how hard I'm working and and look how smart I am. Right? And and But that was such great feedback because it was you know, I'm like, well, I don't wanna have to package up what I'm doing because, you know, apparently, I'm just really smart and, like, people should just know that from OB because they should, to work really hard. But it was this notion of what does it look like to shape my work product in a way that other people are gonna recognize it as a wow instead of a you know? And I think It's the proactiveness of that feedback. Right? Because that was I don't wanna say it was hurtful. It was hurtful. I'll be honest. Like, right? Because I'm like, no.

Julie Ragatz [00:34:25]: Yeah. No. And it it felt made me feel really tired. So I don't want him to package up my product in some way that you're just not gonna immediately see its value. Like, why don't you just immediately see it? And Yeah. So it is about that. And that's where the mentor comes in. Right? Because I did have mentors.

Julie Ragatz [00:34:41]: And I'm like, that's so lame. And he said, super lame. Totally get that. Let me help you.

Joanna Ehresman [00:34:48]: Yeah.

Julie Ragatz [00:34:48]: And he was not The person who could go into the room necessarily and advocate for me, but he was good at what he did. And he was able to say, Julie, if you just Talked about your diversity research in this way, like, emphasizing the business case. And I'm like, Why? Like, it's diversity is really important. And he's like, yeah. Never mind. Right? But it was for me, it was just getting that. But that mentorship was really, really helpful, And it was a skills based thing. Right? And he could have done that for you and you and you and me and anybody.

Julie Ragatz [00:35:19]: Because, again, mentorship is really abundance. I mean, it really helped.

Leah Alter [00:35:24]: Well and I think it's also, like, acknowledging when you need an advocate in in your life and in your career and when you need a mentor. And You don't always need both all the time. No. But kind of just recognizing what you need in that moment to help you get over that next comp or onto them that next thing. I had, like, a follow-up question. One thing that came up in the research too is this Phenomenon about the queen bee, right, kicking out that ladder once she made it to the top. And I I think probably a lot of women who are listening right now have had someone they thought was a mentor or an advocate Who ended up not being. Right? Who ended up maybe following falling into this queen b category.

Leah Alter [00:36:14]: From your research, how do you kind of differentiate or kind of acknowledge who somebody is in your life And how to navigate that. I know I that was not like a planned question. It just kinda came up as we were talking about it. I would just love to get kinda your thoughts on that.

Julie Ragatz [00:36:31]: So I think there's a there's a couple different threads to untangle. When I started doing research and talking about the lack of diversity in our industry. I mean, I was doing this back in 2015, and that was really before before a lot of the very much needed momentum has come in our industry to make change. And I Spoke to a lot of audiences of mostly white male producers about the problems of of lack of representation in our industry. And I realized something very early on is that when I said things like we need to increase or expand opportunities for women in our industry or or, underrepresented racial and ethnic groups. I said that, and what they heard was, you're telling me I didn't earn it, Julie. And I would say, you know, we need to make sure that we're expansionist. We need to make sure that we're, you know, actively recruiting.

Julie Ragatz [00:37:26]: And they say, you're telling me that I'm successful just because I'm a white guy, and that doesn't resonate with my experience. And so I started co I started, I started kind of prefacing this in a very different way. And and my father was an adviser, built a very successful practice. And I have very vivid memories of him doing client seminars, and this was back in the eighties. Right? Actually, in Minneapolis, China, doing client seminars at Edina Country Club.

Joanna Ehresman [00:37:52]: Oh, yep. Done events there.

Julie Ragatz [00:37:54]: Yep. My dad was not a natural extrovert. He was an analytical guy. Most of his clients most of his clients where you know, worked at Northwest Airlines. Remember that? For 3 m. Right? So they were engineers, pilots. He was not an extrovert. He's a wonderful man, deeply ethical, well kind of spoken, very kind not not sales guy.

Julie Ragatz [00:38:15]: And he would come home from these web He would come home from not webinars, seminars because it wasn't webinars back in the eighties, and he would look so tired. And he would have to stay afterwards There wasn't answer every question they had. Right? Because you're trying to build that business and you're trying to do that. And I remember my dad in 2008 sitting out in the driveway in a car when Bear Stearns fell. And he had that cell phone you plugged in. I'm totally dating myself here. And he called every single one of his clients, And I remember him walking in tired, and I shared those stories. And so my dad worked very, very hard for what he had.

Julie Ragatz [00:38:50]: Right? He built up a tremendous book of business, and I saw how hard he worked and how much he sacrificed and how much, You know, he didn't do things for himself or for the house because he poured all of his money back into his business. I remember that my mom worked so that her salary could cover the living expenses of the family, so he could pour his money into building up his book. I said the amazing thing about my dad is he put in all that effort and he was successful. All I'm trying to do is create a space in which a woman where a black man or a black woman can put in that effort and get the same result. It's not that you didn't earn what you got because you absolutely earned what you got. It's that other people work just as hard as you, and they make the same sacrifices you make, and they don't get it. And that's the problem. Right? The problem is that the work doesn't pay off in the same way.

Julie Ragatz [00:39:43]: And I have found that framing that up opens people up to the diversity question in a different sort of way. And I think that, you know, that notion of dessert, and that notion of kind of suffering. Because this is not in easy business to get into, particularly if you're dealing with people who are my age, which is late forties and older. I think that actually ties back to the queen bee phenomenon, which is this notion of it was really hard for me. It was hard to build a business as a woman in the 19 eighties nineties. It wasn't much easier in the early 2000. The amount of discrimination that we know existed, the amount of harassment, that was just a matter of course, the amount of comments you blew off, the amount of discrimination on the part of clients, the amount of casual sexism that existed in society. Our business was not immune to it and it even amplified it.

Julie Ragatz [00:40:40]: And And so the notion is is I suffered this thing. Are you telling me that someone else is gonna get what I got without having to work the way I worked. And for me, it's again, it's that whole point of let let's separate the suffering from the work. Because no one's saying that women should come into this business and not have to work. No one's saying that the work you did is not relevant to some young woman coming up. What they are saying is that we should create a space where you can do the work without the suffering and get the reward. And I think they're for me, I think there are queen bees. You know? My husband did a research study, Help me do a research study.

Julie Ragatz [00:41:21]: My husband's a quantitative researcher, and I remember him sending me the findings. He had done the statistical analysis. And the subject line, quoting from Mulan, was I'll make a man out of you. Right? Like, you'll be successful, but you're gonna have to develop these very masculine characteristics. And I think that that was very real and very true. I think that the way you counteract the queen bee phenomenon is to you genuinely acknowledge the experience they went through, and have conversations about its ill effects. Right? But to be very specific about the fact that it's not about the work, it's about the suffering. And we need to kind of separate those out.

Julie Ragatz [00:42:03]: For women, I'm being very rambly, but, Leah, you asked a very good question. For women, it is daunting and upsetting when they encounter it. And that's a very real phenomenon too. A lot of times, I talk with young women or women in their thirties, who are young to me anyway. And they're so upset by that. Right? Like, the sisterhood thing, like, did not pan out the way they thought, and and they feel sadly treated. And they feel worse Then if they would've, then that would've been a man. Like, they would've expected it from a guy.

Joanna Ehresman [00:42:36]: It's like a betrayal on a different level.

Julie Ragatz [00:42:38]: That is absolutely the word. It feels like a betrayal. And, again, we don't know what we don't know. And and in some ways, for me, being the age I am and having been in the business as long as I've been, I almost feel like it's important to explain to the 23 year old, 24 year old women. Like, listen. You don't know really what it was like. It was not easy. It is easier for you now because she was there.

Julie Ragatz [00:43:02]: And that doesn't mean that it's okay, but it does, I think, create context for everyone to understand the situation a little different.

Leah Alter [00:43:10]: Well, it gives you, an opportunity to meet in the middle. Right. Understanding both experiences and letting them be valid and real, But also being able to find a common ground of, like and and together, we can move forward.

Julie Ragatz [00:43:27]: Absolutely. And, again, this is not just more printing. Larger context of what's happening in the world in general. Right? I think the needs movement upended a lot of assumptions about what was appropriate behavior. And, again, anyone, again, my age, boy oh boy, this sort of stuff you just didn't even think about. No one would listen to you. No one would believe you. No one would care.

Julie Ragatz [00:43:49]: And that those assumptions have just been upended, and that's a wonderful, wonderful thing. Yeah. And I think going forward, a lot of this stuff will be taken for granted, but it's not. Right? And somebody's just trying to explain like you said, they meet in the middle kind of explain the differing perspectives. No one should have to suffer harassment to be successful. No one should have to deny what their body needs and their mind needs after having a child to be successful. They no one should should operate in an environment where they are discriminated against on the basis of their gender orientation. That is never okay.

Julie Ragatz [00:44:21]: And, again, the more we kinda say that in those terms, the more people agree with it because it's so obviously true. It's harder, though, I think in the particular situation than in the abstract.

Joanna Ehresman [00:44:32]: Julie, you're making me cry again.

Julie Ragatz [00:44:37]: But that's a real response too. And I think women talking about their own hurt over these experiences and the way it's negatively affected their lives. I mean, when I did a research study at the American College when I was a professor there and I interviewed 70 women, and it was just, I mean, it was wrenching for me Yeah. Because the stories are real. I think that one of the things we you Leah, you mentioned about allyship. I think that's allyship. Allyship is listening to somebody else's experiences. Yes.

Julie Ragatz [00:45:08]: And even if it's not being committed to Leah's success or Joanna's success, it's that I'm committed to hearing your experiences. I'm committing to trusting that you are an authority on what you experienced, and I'm not gonna try to you know? And that's essentially the the quintessential problem with mansplaining, right, is that I'm gonna try to tell you what you should know. It's like right. The idea is is that I'm an authority on my experience. You're not an authority on that.

Leah Alter [00:45:32]: Learning how to hold space for other people is a It's a superpower. And it will transform your relationships personally, professionally with your I mean, just every Every single one of them. I think that's such a such a, like, a strong, impactful way Even as if you're not in a power position to be someone's mentor or to be somebody's sponsor, You can hold space for somebody in the experience that they're having as a as a coworker, as a friend.

Joanna Ehresman [00:46:11]: So, Julie, tell us, how can someone listening to this show, how can they support the work that you're doing at Carson?

Julie Ragatz [00:46:19]: That's such a great question. I think that for us, it's continually you know, obviously, downloading the report from 2023, You know, sharing that within your organization is, you know, something that's really important to us. And one of the things that we are so proud of is that our women's research was has historically been one of our most downloaded sought after pieces, which again just makes it you know, continues to persuade the hearts and minds within Carson that this is something we need to be committed to. You know, there will be opportunities to participate in the research going forward in 2024. So that's definitely a way to support us as well. You know? I think that the the research is important and what Carson is doing is important. But, ultimately, it's really just a drop in the bucket. So I would actually reframe the question to say, you know, what we want is for us to think through how we can effectively be a sponsor, a mentor, and an ally.

Julie Ragatz [00:47:13]: And frankly, it's raising those voices on your own, in your own kinda network of, you know, how are you trying to make this industry better for all people? You know, that would be I would the the call to action for me is really that. Like, search your heart, search your network, see ways you can help. Yeah. And then definitely, like, download report.

Leah Alter [00:47:32]: Because people count so good.

Julie Ragatz [00:47:34]: So I'll I'll, yeah, I'll go back to that. Right? Download the report.

Joanna Ehresman [00:47:36]: If you download it, are you on the list for outreach for next year of, Of like, hey. Would you like to purchase this? Okay. Alright. Great.

Leah Alter [00:47:42]: Well and we'll have links to to the report as well. If you are listening, it'll be in the show notes, or on in, the notes on the YouTube page as well.

Joanna Ehresman [00:47:54]: Great. Well, this has been such a A fantastic conversation, Julie. I just thank you for being here and sharing these important findings. That's our show for today. If ours is a mission that If

Leah Alter [00:48:06]: you wanna share in, check out our website at womensharepodcast.com. And thanks again to our sponsor for this episode, nine nine four group. And if you're interested in learning more about how you can sponsor an episode as amazing this, and help us continue the mission here at WomenShare, email us at womensharepodcast@gmail.com. And with that, I'm Leah Alter.

Joanna Ehresman [00:48:31]: And I'm Joanna Ehresman, and we'll catch you on the next episode of WomenShare.