Emotional Intelligence: The Importance of Empathy, Vulnerability, and Emotional Literacy in Financial Services

Holly O'Hanlon [00:00:00]:
Empathy can be a skillset too, of learning how to just be able to sit with somebody, learning how to ask, what do you need right now? You know, can we sit with someone without judging or making assumptions up about how they should be feeling or why they're feeling the way they're feeling?

Joanna Ehresman [00:00:27]:
Hi there. Thanks for joining us. I'm Joanna Ehresman. And I'm Leah Alter. And this is WomenShare, a marketing guide for women in financial services.

Leah Alter [00:00:37]:
And today we're excited to discuss how we lead in this industry and specifically focused on emotional intelligence. Whether you're a financial adviser or on a corporate team, expectations have evolved and studies have shown that bringing authenticity and connection to our careers has a huge impact, not only on our company cultures, but on our well-being. And today, I'm thrilled that Holly O'Hanlon, an executive and well-being coach from Entrust Wellness, is joining us. I can speak from experience that the leadership coaching that Holly leads with her partners on developing brave leaders and courageous cultures has been game changing for how I show up at work, and I have seen the impact, with others in the coaching cohorts as well. And on a personal note, Holly is a very dear friend. So we've shared a lot of great experiences together, and I can attest to who you will hear and see today on the podcast is very much who she is all around. So, Holly, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to Women's Share.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:01:37]:
Thank you so much for that intro, Joanna, and nice to meet you, Leah. It's so nice to be here. Thank you for having me on. We are. Making me blush and cry a little bit.

Leah Alter [00:01:45]:
Oh, yes. Here's we did it. Vulnerability. Vulnerability.

Joanna Ehresman [00:01:50]:
We're just so excited that you're here. I went Joanna and said that you were interested in coming on. I got so excited because this is definitely a topic that I am personally passionate about too. And so just really thrilled that you're here. We've had a lot of guests on that have talked about emotional intelligence and how important that work is, that financial advisors do with their clients. So we're really excited to hear about what you have to say about emotional intelligence. It's just just such a buzzword these days. And can you help us kinda set the table and provide some context, on what those skills are and how they're at play with someone who is said to have a high EQ? You know, we hear terms like empathy, vulnerability.

Joanna Ehresman [00:02:39]:
What are, you know, your definitions of that in terms of how we show up in this industry?

Holly O'Hanlon [00:02:47]:
You know, I think about it emotional intelligence overall and those that we that we see or define as having high emotional intelligence, it's really the ability to name and understand the feeling of a variety of emotions. You know, a lot of times I remember hearing, I think it was from Brene Brown. She did a study of like 7,000 people and asked them to name the emotions that they could actually feel, not just name because we can a lot of people can do that, but actually feel. And do you wanna, does one of do you both wanna guess what the number was? What was the average number?

Leah Alter [00:03:23]:
That they couldn't

Holly O'Hanlon [00:03:24]:
That they could name, that they could feel.

Joanna Ehresman [00:03:26]:
Yeah. 3. Not a lot.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:03:28]:
K. We assume

Leah Alter [00:03:29]:
I was gonna say 30. I don't know. Okay. I'm Okay. Joanna is an optimist. The training talk. You're the problem.

Joanna Ehresman [00:03:37]:
The optimist. Right?

Holly O'Hanlon [00:03:39]:
We got an optimist and pragmatist. No. It was 3. Leah, you're right. It was mad, glad, sad. Right? We know when we're angry. We know when we're happy, and we know when we're sad. But there's all of those nuanced emotions like frustration, grief, shame, overwhelm, anxiety.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:03:57]:
You know, there's a whole host of other emotions that actually do feel a little different in your body. They have different thoughts associated to them. And so going back to your original question, emotional intelligence is really getting, a better grasp and having more literacy around how those emotions show up in you and being able to name them. And then we think about you asked about specifically, empathy and vulnerability, and we talk a lot about this in our leadership development. And, we take the phrase, the definition of vulnerability from Brene Brown's dare to lead, which is emotional exposure, risk, emotional exposure, and uncertainty with no guarantee of, of, of the, the outcome. So you're putting, you're putting your emotions out there. You don't know what the outcome is going to be. It's going to feel risky, but that's kinda And so it feels emotional.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:04:47]:
It feels personal. It feels uncomfortable. And then empathy, you know, I think of empathy as one of the biggest or most important skill sets of a leader of of really any of anyone that it's like a superpower. And then that's just really the ability to be with people in their emotions, with their emotions. It doesn't mean taking them on, but being able to be with someone, especially when it's hard and just say, I'm here. You know, that sounds hard.

Leah Alter [00:05:16]:
Well, and it's interesting to think about if you are more aware of your emotions, if you can go from naming and identifying 3 to 30, or, you know, that does that like, is there that correlation then with empathizing and recognizing that in others? Right? So it's kind of this, like, additive Yes.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:05:35]:
Scale. I think it's a really good point. And so when you're thinking of, like, an adviser with a client, for example, being able to notice the emotions that are showing up on their face or in their body language and, you know, being able to say, I noticed I noticed something here.

Leah Alter [00:05:49]:
Mhmm.

Joanna Ehresman [00:05:49]:
Well and and advisers are oftentimes working with people who are moving through big life transitions. And so it's never just about money. It's never just about numbers on a page. It's also the big emotional thing that's happening. I'm retiring. Someone has passed. You know, all of these, like, big life things that happen. And being able to hold space for someone else's experience and being sort of that rock.

Joanna Ehresman [00:06:21]:
Right? That person that can hold the space without, to your point, taking it on or, you know, getting emotionally involved in that way. Mhmm. It it really is such a powerful thing, especially in this industry.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:06:35]:
Yeah. That's a really good point. And I think, Joanna, you and I were talking about that a little bit is, you know, we think about wealth and money and I mean, I guess I did of just it's just very transactional and it's it's money. And then you just to your point, Leo, when you sit down with your adviser, and we have an adviser, our our, me and my partner, and it's all personal. And what built trust with him was he asked about what we wanted to do with it. What do we want out of life? What's important to us? What what are our emotions around money? What's, you know, what drives our decision making? And then all of a sudden you're a human and it's not just transactional, it's more relational.

Leah Alter [00:07:14]:
Obviously, this show, we've had all women guests thus far, and it's been a really interesting conversation. Again, this topic around emotional intelligence and that being a strength women tend tend to have more than men, has been a consistent theme. Although, what's interesting is, is it natural, or are we are we generally socialized, right, to be more empathetic or display these skills? So we had a guest on who's a researcher and looked at women in wealth management. And she's she was like, I agree with the fact that women are most more tend to be more emotionally intelligent than men generally, but where I disagree is saying it comes to them naturally. I think it's we that's how we are raised. And so bearing that in mind, like, these are skills that can be taught and learned. Right? Like, there are specific components to empathy and that sort of thing. Can you talk a little bit more about how that can be taught to anybody regardless of gender?

Holly O'Hanlon [00:08:12]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, even just with emotional intelligence, you know, it's a practice of we're not born just knowing all of our emotions and being able to name them and, decide what we want to do with them. That's a practice and it takes intention. So even understanding how it takes, it takes a lot of slowing down. It takes a lot of awareness, and it takes a lot of vulnerability because some emotions can be hard and uncomfortable. And so I think to your point, even just broadening our emotional and improving our emotional intelligence is a practice that anybody can learn because we are emotional beings that sometimes think. But we often think we're cognitive and that we can just do nothing with we can just push our emotions aside, but we all we all feel emotions.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:08:55]:
So the work and the practice that everyone can do is to start being more aware of what they are and what they're trying to tell us. And then on the empathy side, Joanna, you mentioned, you know, I think one of we talk about empathy misses and one of them, but the misses is trying to fix everything. And I, and, you know, that happens all the time. As a mom, I wanna fix my kids' problems. And I and now I don't. Now now I've shifted into like, I don't have to do this. I just have to be here with you and and figure out how I can be best supportive. Sometimes it is fixing.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:09:27]:
Oftentimes, it's just listening. So again, you know, empathy can be a skillset too, of learning how to just be able to sit with somebody, learning how to ask, what do you need right now? Do you need me to fix? Do you need advice? Do you need me to just listen? It also includes, non judgment. You know, can we sit with someone without judging or making assumptions up about how they should be feeling or why they're feeling the way they're feeling and just truly be neutral and just believe them that that's, this is what they, this is their experience right now. So yes, I absolutely. I agree with you that in our society and just social conditioning, women often feel or may be perceived as more emotionally intelligent than men. I think men get sometimes in their upbringing, like that emotions aren't allowed as much or, invited. And so but I think it's this is a practice for everyone because we we are emotional beings. We all have them.

Joanna Ehresman [00:10:33]:
Absolutely. I think probably the most valuable thing I ever learned being in a corporate setting was learning how to take a beat. And that was transformative for me personally, professionally, relationally, like transformative because I was just a quick to respond. Whatever I was feeling in that initial moment had to be the right thing. And learning how to do that was just really so powerful. I'm so grateful for that. I can't imagine going back. Also one thing you said about empathy and fixing that just, like, pinged for me because that fixing is so common of a codependent when you talk about that, I feel like I'm doing something or that I'm contributing by fixing, even when that is not necessarily what is being asked of you by the person needing support.

Joanna Ehresman [00:11:42]:
Right. What are your and, this is totally not you know, was that one of our questions? But what are your kind of thoughts on redirecting that energy?

Holly O'Hanlon [00:11:52]:
Yeah. Well, that's that's some inner work to just notice when you want to fix. So if you know, you know, I think parenting is one easy way to to to notice that often, or even with your partner or someone close to you, you just want to fix their problems. It's the intent is there. The intent is good. So first it's noticing I have this desire to fix. And then second, it's saying something different. And that can be either asking a question like, do you need advice? Do you want me to help solve this or do you just want somebody to listen? That can be really powerful.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:12:28]:
Just asking, what do you what do you what do you need from me right now?

Leah Alter [00:12:32]:
Mhmm.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:12:32]:
And that can be really helpful when you are with somebody, especially when they're having a hard time and you're like, I don't know what to do here. This feels really uncomfortable. One of the best phrases I've heard, it's from my business partner, is that's sounds really hard. Thank you for telling me, and I'm here for you. Very simple.

Leah Alter [00:12:51]:
And I'm just thinking too stepping into the shoes of a financial advisor or even somebody in any sort of leadership role where you're generally you're in that role because you have knowledge and you have expertise. Right? Like, if reading those cues or being mindful of, okay, it's they're not they're not telling me this or they're not they're the person across from me is expressing this emotion or going through this thing, and they're not coming to me for my corporate leadership skills right now or my knowledge as a financial adviser. It's a human to human connection. And I can imagine in an average client review meeting, you know, an adviser is gonna have to really be navigating what is the what's the vibe right now in terms of where we are. Right? Is this a demonstrate expertise? And and I think the the concept of slowing down and just making space for reaction or thinking before you provide an answer is Yeah. Is powerful, like you said, Leah.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:13:51]:
Well and I'm curious. And, from both of your perspectives, when, when you, you know, the things that I just said around empathy are really helpful, especially with personal relationships or even work relationships, but you have a relationship. And so I'm curious from your perspective when it's not as close of a relationship, but it's an important one. What do you think would be helpful for advisors to do when they do notice emotion or if they are talking about grief or loss or, you know, some big transition that is emotional?

Leah Alter [00:14:25]:
From what I've learned through the leadership coaching, right, is is staying curious, right, and asking the really simple questions of just checking in, like, hey. It it appears to me like this is, you know, getting into a hard space for you. Am I reading that right? Right? Like, just Mhmm. Staying in that curiosity of just checking, like, am I reading this? Is and that gives the client or someone who maybe you're less familiar with to be like, no. No. No. No. Like, if they don't wanna talk about it, they'll be like, no.

Leah Alter [00:14:55]:
Let's let's take the conversation back in this direction. Right? So Yeah. I think that's part of it is always making space for the other person to kinda take it where they need to take it.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:15:05]:
Yeah. That curiosity angles. I just put you on the spot. But, yeah, that Yeah.

Leah Alter [00:15:09]:
I know.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:15:09]:
Just asking the question

Joanna Ehresman [00:15:19]:
like, a connection point or a way to relate to an experience too so that the client isn't feeling like I'm the a lot of times when we're in those heightened states, we feel like, oh, I'm the only one feeling this, even though we maybe rationally don't know that. Sure. So I think being able to bring it down to, like, a very human level of, like, oh, I felt that too when this happened. I under you know, being able to just again, back to the empathy thing, being able to understand how you feel in that moment so that the client doesn't feel shame or awkward for having an emotional reaction to something that's going on.

Leah Alter [00:16:04]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:16:06]:
And I can imagine that just made me think, Leah, just if a advisor works with so many clients, they can say, hey, you're not alone. You're not the only one that has experienced this. And that can be really powerful too, even if the advisor themselves haven't experienced it, that I've heard this before. You're you're not alone. Mhmm.

Joanna Ehresman [00:16:24]:
Yeah. How could you see vulnerability and this type of courage and leadership really showing up, and impacting the work that we're doing. How could how do you kind of envision or the work that you've done with clients with the leadership training you've done where you've seen an evolution where it went from maybe something transactional or, not so cohesive to, more of a human not to human.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:16:59]:
I think when we can just open up about and be more transparent about what's happening with, with each other. And so that might be in a conversation just as you are all mentioning, a conversation about a life transition or, you know, what's, what's going on that's driving the conversation around finances. And I'm being really specific here, but, that just having that human element of asking what the emotion is underneath it of asking them how they feel about that or what they want and just getting more less about how much, because that will come later. But what do you actually want? Why is it important? What's, what's motivating about this? Those are all vulnerable questions, especially if it's not a, you know, a trusted family member or a friend. But they're really important to just build that relationship and build that trust in order to move forward and make the right decisions. So I think in all of whether it's work or personal life, when we can get down underneath the surface and you don't have to go very far. But going back to Joanna, just going back to the idea of curiosity and under and wanting to understand a little bit more about why this is important. What's happening here.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:18:10]:
What's important about whatever you're talking about that allows people to be as vulnerable as they want. And some people are not gonna wanna talk about it. Right? And at the same time, it allows people to share just a little bit more about them. So you you have a better understanding of of why people are showing up the way they are. Because if we don't, we make up stories as to why people are showing up the way they are. I just facilitated on emotional intelligence and the stories we make up. And so when we're not in connection and asking questions of each other, we don't know. And so we, if this person is like coming in hot to a meeting and angry, or even like a client coming in hot and angry, you know, the ability to take a deep breath and say, I noticed your energy is a little different here today.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:18:57]:
Tell me more. Tell me, you know, tell me what's, tell me what's going on. That can really get to a lot of interesting answers and make people feel heard.

Leah Alter [00:19:06]:
Yeah. Versus assuming, oh, they're coming in hot because they're unhappy with our team and the service we're providing, and I got a quick, you know, like, react. Yeah. It was funny. Actually, it was earlier today. I saw a meme where it was like, why is it that when I don't respond to an email, it's from someone, it's because I'm busy, but when someone else doesn't respond, it's because they hate me. Right? Like, back

Holly O'Hanlon [00:19:27]:
to the 100%.

Leah Alter [00:19:29]:
Yeah. The stories. The stories.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:19:31]:
The stories. We in one of our cohorts, so somebody said, we have a there's an exercise where you write down your whole, your whole first draft of the story that's going on in your head about some situation. And at the end, the person was like, I just realized I could be, like, the next Danielle Steele. I've got so much drama in my story. It's very interesting, and little of it is true. Right. Or I haven't at least checked it out. Right? Maybe some stuff is true.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:20:01]:
But we got we have to know our know the stories, and check them out. See what's true and what's not true.

Leah Alter [00:20:08]:
Yeah. Well and one other thing that I thought was interesting or what I I've learned is what vulnerability isn't. Right? Like, it's not necessarily overdisclosing or not respecting the boundaries. Like, I in a corporate role, I can reflect on times where, you know, I was wanting to keep the team up to speed on what's going on, but there's a line, right, of what you can and cannot share about organizational changes or whatever it is. And so I think it's also vulnerability is not like, hey. I'm gonna let you in on this information I shouldn't be sharing or overshare about myself because look at me being vulnerable. Right? There's so there's boundaries there.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:20:46]:
Absolutely.

Joanna Ehresman [00:20:47]:
Yeah. Emotional dumping in the office, is definitely a thing. And it's an energy sucker for everyone around you. Whether it being on the receiving end of it, it's it's it's just as diff like, just as difficult, if not more difficult than the person that's, like, trying to move through it, and probably unaware that they're dumping.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:21:13]:
Right. Right. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a practice. You know, we this is gonna be, you know, 30 minutes on emotional intelligence and vulnerability, and this is a journey. And we are all gonna get it right sometimes, and we're all gonna overshare and, you know, get it and get empathy wrong. And so it's just more about just being more aware and and trying to to tend to it in a healthy way more often than not, knowing that we don't always get it right.

Leah Alter [00:21:42]:
Yeah. We're not gonna be perfect every time. Yeah. So interestingly, the 3 of us have some career history in common. So, Holly, prior to becoming a coach, you were in a corporate marketing role for more than a decade. Right? With Sleep Number? Yeah. Yeah. So you've been you've been out of that world for a while, but we'd just be curious to hear since Leah and I are more recent in moving from a corporate role to, like, independent life.

Leah Alter [00:22:09]:
I would love to hear more about, like, what what brought you to that place and, you know, like, what insight do you have now? Like, what would you wanna tell the Holly of 10 years ago now that you're this far on the other side?

Holly O'Hanlon [00:22:20]:
Wait a second. That was not on the the list of questions to ponder.

Leah Alter [00:22:24]:
I'm sorry. That's okay.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:22:29]:
So, you know, briefly the I yeah. I was in retail marketing for a long time. Enjoyed it. Loved, by the end of my career, I was I, led a team and I really enjoyed leading them. Ultimately, I kind of I just fell out of love with the work itself. It wasn't fulfilling for me anymore, and it was really my girls were very young at the time, so I was just really stressed out, burned out, and overwhelmed. And so when that happens, you start thinking there's gotta be something different. And so over a couple of years, coaching just kind of came into my environment after a lot of discussion and conversation with various people.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:23:04]:
And I thought the 2 things that I knew I wanted was more meaningful conversations. I really liked the conversations with my team. I wanted to help them grow. I wanted to I was curious about what they wanted to do, and I thought I could do more of this, but I wanna be on my own. And I also just needed more flexibility. And so ultimately coaching came in and I was also curious at the time because I was so burned out and overwhelmed around well-being in the workplace and what that truly, truly look would look like and how it could really work. You know, pick ping pong tables and treadmills are not the answer to people feeling really well and taken care of at work.

Leah Alter [00:23:44]:
Free pizza is best Free pizza then.

Joanna Ehresman [00:23:46]:
I'm shocked. I'm shocked. I know. I know.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:23:50]:
Added, yeah, added events after work. Maybe for some, but yeah. So I was interested in that too. So I ultimately left the corporate world, went back to school and, board certified health and wellness coach and executive coach trying to bring leadership and well-being together. So yeah. And at the 10 what would I tell myself? You know, I'd probably it's it's worked out okay, but I would probably tell myself to have a more of a plan. I kinda just winged it. I it's like, I know what I wanna do, but I'm not quite sure of the how.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:24:25]:
And I probably could have been a little more you know, thankfully, I have a very supportive husband who was like, okay. I'm gonna I got you. And and, I feel very, very privileged that that I was in a position to be able to do that. Mhmm. Not not it's yeah. And also it just, like have to go for it.

Leah Alter [00:24:43]:
You do.

Joanna Ehresman [00:24:43]:
Right? You do.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:24:45]:
And I will say to connect it back to to all of your work, our financial adviser was a big piece of that, of, like, can I make this can I make this change? Because it is gonna impact how I save, what I make, what I, you know, all of that. And so, so we had those discussions and they're hard because they're vulnerable. And I, I remember just sitting with him and he was very optimistic, but he was also very realistic of this is what it's gonna look like. And that was really helpful.

Joanna Ehresman [00:25:13]:
Yeah. The power of financial planning. We talk about it a lot on the show. We talk about it in this industry a lot. It's not just a buzzword. It really can set you on a course to, yeah, fulfill those desires and those dreams that you may think are unattainable when they actually if we switch this and we do this and there's this and this, actually become very realistic.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:25:40]:
Right.

Joanna Ehresman [00:25:41]:
Alright. So on the same line about your, you know, what you would tell yourself, we ask every guest, what is the best career advice you've ever received?

Holly O'Hanlon [00:25:52]:
Yeah. This is an interesting I was thinking, this goes way back to my first manager, and she left the company. I was still there and she gave me we had a good relationship and she gave me a like a mini kaleidoscope. And in the card that she wrote, which was a lovely card and gave me a lot of confidence, which was nice. But she also said, just remember with any challenge, there's multiple there's endless ways to think about it. And so I I mean, I still have the Kaleidoscope, and I just think about that all the time of there's just always new ways to think about a challenge or a situation. Because often we we think about, like, 2. It's like our emotions.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:26:28]:
There's not just 3. There are so many, and we and we just have to give ourselves space and time to to consider them and to think about them.

Leah Alter [00:26:36]:
I love that. Yeah. Because Right. You know? And, again, it goes back to just being aware, pausing, reflecting. Right? Like, those are skills. I I admittedly am still needing to practice on a regular basis. Right? But it's it can be so easy to just get caught up in reacting and Mhmm. And getting dead set.

Leah Alter [00:26:56]:
It ties back to telling yourself stories too. Well, there's only one solution for this, and it's so difficult, and da da da da da. You know? So I like that. Multiple perspectives. Okay. So where if people are curious if they found this conversation interesting, which I'm Yes. I guarantee they did. How can people find out more about you, connect with you? What's the best way to

Holly O'Hanlon [00:27:18]:
Sure. So I am on LinkedIn, Holly O'Hanlon. I am on Instagram. I am coach Holly is my handle. And then, just my my my website is, don't worry. I was in marketing for years. It's called a website, and it's, interest wellness.com.

Leah Alter [00:27:38]:
Great. And we'll make sure all of those are linked in the show notes as well. So everybody follow Holly. She's full of great content. So Thank you. Awesome. Yeah.

Joanna Ehresman [00:27:46]:
This has been such a fantastic conversation and needed conversation. Thank you so much for being here, sharing everything that you have with us. We being here. Thank you both for being here.

Holly O'Hanlon [00:28:06]:
Thank you both for inviting me. This was this was just a joy. I could talk about this stuff all the time, so I appreciate the opportunity.

Leah Alter [00:28:12]:
Oh, absolutely. Well, that is our show for today. If ours is a mission that you want to share in, subscribe to WomenShare on your favorite podcast platform. And with that, I'm Joanna Ehresman.

Joanna Ehresman [00:28:25]:
And I'm Leah Alter. And we'll catch you on the next episode of Women's Share.